3d Token Art

I'm not sure on this, and if any of the artists want to correct me then please do so. This site is really more for specific requests rather than a general ... "Make me some models please."

The artists whether they are 3D rendering or not need descriptions of what you want, otherwise they really can't decide if they want to do it. There is no direction to your request at all.

Also, there is a common rule that no more than 3 characters per request please, and since this request is for an unlimited ammount of characters, I'd have to say that it really doesn't belong in the Requests forum.

I'd suggest either asking it to be moved to the general forum, or edit it to be more artist friendly.

Now this is my opinion, which may or may not hold any weight. But it's a few suggestions.

Definitely a good response Xanamair.

If I may chime in, I do have a bit more criteria, specifics to mention and address. I do warn everyone that this will be a lengthly read, and apologize in advance. I'll try to break it down into multiple points, and list the points at the top here. I don't intend to sound off-putting or snarky or over-analytical. Please understand I have to look and consider alot of factors, as well as explain that I'm not a Lucasfilm employee with unlimited access to their resources, nor am I a highly experienced modeler that could easily whip up any model or creature requested.

Outline:
- Top-Down renders
- Limitations in 3d rendering
- Usage, Quantity, Size & Scale
-- Quantity & Usage
-- Size & Scale
-- Scale
-- Image / sheet dimensions
- In Summary

Top-Down renders:
Now, when it comes to top-down, theres either the main (conical) camera that I can position anywheres, even use multiple cameras for a variety of views. The conical camera is exactly as it sounds, your regular off the shelf camera lens, that renders the view as you would use a realworld camera to take a picture, true 3d perspective.

Then there is also the 2d flat 'Isometric' camera, where literally its direct and flat like a technical drawing / illustration, There's no perspective distortion or bending. This camera mode includes the necessary views - front, back, L & R sides, top and bottom. This mode comes closest to how I or anyone else here draws diagrams, layouts, floor plans and technical spec type images.

So, when someone asks me for a top-down type render, some clarity is needed in directly which method of top-down is being requested.

A link provided would've been real handy and a timesaver for showing examples of which top-down we're talking about. Alas, I did some digging myself and found: RPGMapshare - SteelRat: WWII German and British topdown 3d renders ... Ok, so that is indeed Isometric top-down renders.

I have seen various rpg map software packages that offer this sort of idea, make your maps and add in props, characters, vehicles, all top-down illustrated style graphics. So now I understand a bit better the nature of the request.

Limitations in 3d rendering:
Now, there's a few issues in limitations regarding just what I can or can't render in regarding taking on requests, or personal requests for that matter.

1.) I really have to pick and choose which requests I accept or apply to tackle. This directly stems from the availability of 3d models that I own or have on hand from which I can work with. My modeling skills is still entry level, so I depend on content that already has been made by someone else. Even if there is a particular or specific model out there that I could use, it doesn't mean I automatically have it, and if theres a purchase price, I likely won't buy it to freely fill someone's request. (This is a costly enough hobby for me as it is, to purchase content I want and like for my own interests, which certainly isn't soley Star Wars).

2.) When I do apply to take on a request, I do state that I may not have the exact item or style / look the requestor is asking for, although I may have a similar substitute. And I do ask if this is alright with the requestor. (otherwise its pointless even taking the request if the request isn't negotiable under those terms and conditions)

3.) When it comes to Star Wars and its immense wide and well known popularity, there is an exact opposite lack of abundance in specific Star Wars 3d models (outside of Lucasfilm's inhouse modeling, which is not open to public access). There is some selection of SW 3d vehicles, ships and fighters in one of 5 common formats, 4 of which I can use. When it comes to clothing, apparel, weapons, and character species - I'm considerably more limited. I can do humans, near humans (Zeltrons, Chiss, etc), humanoids (Twi'leks, Neti, Wookies (male only), Zabracks-MAYBE, Jawas-hooded only), Alien species - felene & canine / anthro variety (Farghuls, Togorians, Cathar, Amaran, Nelvaanian), droids - a select few mainly Astromechs, Animals / Beasts - officially I have a Rancor and thats about it. For technology, I do have a few weapons choices for blasters & rifles, and a handful of lightsabers, including a light-whip and bowcaster.

4.) Time. This is a two sided issue: Composition & Rendering time vs Personal time. While the computer hardware I have (a quadcore cpu, 8gb ram), and its quite fast, it still can take time to render. A full scene can take 1-2 hours or more pending complexity (lighting, shadows, reflections, transparency) for a good quality render. It also takes time to setup a scene, doing test renders as I go along. So even the luxury of technology does the tedious crunching of rendering an image, I still have to put hours of my own spare free (and usually limited) time into setting everything up, and make it look good. There is no such thing as a 'make art' button that simplifies the process for me. The program will calculate how and where the sun makes highlights and shadows, but I still have to use my own experience, judgement and taste in how to arrange the details and models in the scene, set where the light is coming from, light color and intensity. Theres also semi-final renders, where I use good quality render settings, but are semi-final because theres flaws that become apparent I need go back and fix/adjust and tweak until I'm satisfied it looks good. Lastly on the issue of time is, whether I bang out a render an hour, or 1 render a month, its still personal time I'm spending regardless. This holds true for all the artists here be it traditional, digital, or whatever.

5.) Even though I do have an expensive machine, it doesn't mean it can also pump out renders on the fly, nor populate a scene as heavily or dense as say Coruscant city sector with all that sky traffic.

Usage, Quantity, Size & Scale

- Quantity & Usage:
As for taking on a project like this, I feel it best if I weren't the only and exclusive person taking on the project, despite the request for it being soley 3d.

While I can 'bang out' isometric top-down views of the ships and vehicles I do have access to, and were I to do so, (if need be-) would likely also in photoshop, cut and place a dozen per page so I don't flood the new images lineup on the front page. This also means the image 'sheet' of items will then be cut-up as needed for use by the user, and re-posted elswheres. So rather than an art piece, this qualifies more as making 'stock images / game pieces' for use.

- Size & Scale:
Now when we're talking a batch of multiple items to render and/or draw for a project like this, theres the issue of size and scale.

- Size: Images and renders look best when they're not resized, although usually tolerate downsizing at the expense of losing a bit of detail. Swag's maximum gallery image size IIRC is 814x814 pixels (thus why I link offsite to my DeviantArt gallery to provide a higher-resolution version). This well affect the over-all size of how big or small the items on a 'sheet' will be, including the number of.

- Scale:
Does the items all need to be / conform to a uniform scale? IE a landspeeder to an AT-AT?

Or does it matter if we go by the SW Miniatures Starships non-proportionate style, where a Correlian Corvette figure is the same size as an X-Wing? Or sheet-wise. In this case, then the relation of scale from one vehicle to another doesn't matter.

If you need top-down views of items, and for those to be / fit a certain size to place on a map you've drawn / made / generated / using, I don't want to promise they'll be exactly to size as needed for your map, nor to match the size / scale of your other game pieces. Although if the items were made a little bigger, then I suppose the end-user could scale them down to fit as needed, accepting whatever loss in quality said by result of end user's personal skill is in performing said edits / manipulation.

Not all the models I have are built to a uniform scale. In truth, only a handful of items I have are preset to a standard size, while everything else I have to manually re-size. Even if I match all the items to size, or try to - theres some units - ships and vehicles that are simply going to dwarf everything else.

- Image / sheet dimensions:
Some food for thought here - for example, If I render the sheets at 1680x1050 or even 2048x2048, and that translates into a human character works out to be about 400x400 pixels size of area, do you realize how large of an image render I'd have to make a sheet for a Corellian Corvette thats 150m length?

In Summary:

While I appreciate and flattered by having been asked in private request in addition to see'ing a formal request in the forum, and the request being for 3d renders...

Except however, at this point, I'm only pointing out and addressing further issues this request presents. Simply put, I'm not taking nor accepting sole claim on finishing this request, let alone agreeing to commit to a project like this.

;)
________________________
Core to the Quad baby!!!

If your going to complement me, don't tell me my work is neat, cool or awesome. If you really like it, tell me why you like it and what you like about it. Only then I'll take it as a complement.

________________________
Core to the Quad baby!!!

If your going to complement me, don't tell me my work is neat, cool or awesome. If you really like it, tell me why you like it and what you like about it. Only then I'll take it as a complement.

I think it fit's much better here in the community forum then, because it's not really a request for a character. It's not something that could technically ever be taken or completed. But this way it gives you a way to talk with TNJ and any other 3d artists who are around, to see what they can suggest.

If you end up with a request, please don't hesitate to make it though. It's nice to have a variety of requests :)

Well, at the very least now I have some idea regarding what size of 'tokens' I'd be looking at.

Since I completed the character request known as Jacen Baurne, and everyone here is interested in more explanation and in example how easy or difficult would it be to do it via 'top view' style render.

The quick question and answers first:

Q: A top down Jacen Baurne on a white background, as well as that droid as a separate token?
A: Yes to both, I could open the project and render them each at 300x300 pixel tokens if you wish for a start.

Q: Can top-down image tokens done at 300x300 pixels?
A: Yes, no problem for individual ones.

Q: What sorts of models can I do for starters?
A: For starters:
Any free Poser starwars model over at Vanishing Point Free Items: Star Wars

And most free star wars models found over at Sci-Fi 3d.com , provided the items come in .obj , .3ds, or .max format. ( .lwo and other formats are sometimes hit and miss for format import compatibility )

Side note: Some models may lack a few required textures, and none of them are built to a uniform standard scale. (they are or should be proportionately correct tho).

And secondary note: any of the character / droid type models, cannot be posed easily with my software. Consider those as an as-is basis, and may not be posed as shown in those preview thumbnails.

Q: Do I want to be the sole contributor?
A: No, I certainly don't. If theres others here that work with 3d models, by all means, feel free to pitch in. Likewise for traditional artists.

Now for the longer written questions, explanations and answers:

So, lets designate this post as a "Deconstructing Jacen Baurne in 3D" ...

As I explained about the multiple camera modes such as Conical and Isotropic, the Isotropic modes are relatively simple to setup - mainly clicking on a drop-down menu to select the camera type, then set its view to the viewport's Top down view. Its probably easier selecting an Isotropic mode, since the conical camera deals with 'placing the camera' at the best angle to capture the image properly.

Had I set the conical camera for Jacen Baurne straight (center line down the bridge) or to the opposite side, from the left, getting more of his back head hair and shade side of face; it would result in a different overall feel of an image.

Think of me as a virtual photographer, when putting a scene together and doing multiple test renders, the program's work window is a viewport, and as I setup the scene I use a "director's camera" to zip / fly around in, and as I do so, doing various test renders as I go along, I also try out various lighting positions to see what might look good for a final render.

jacen preview 05
jacen preview 7
jacen preview 8
jacen preview 8 topdown viewport work area
jacen preview 8a
jacen preview 9.0
jacen preview 9.1
jacen preview 9.2
jacen preview 9.3
jacen preview 9.4
jacen preview 9.5
jacen preview 9.6
jacen preview 9.8
jacen preview 9.9
jacen preview 9.10
jacen preview 9.11

In previews for example 9.0 , is with the camera straight and center pointing down the bridge. You'll also notice in the upper left corner of the viewport, theres the Director's Camera I work with, and is a dropdown menu to select the various viewport defaults (top, down, left, right, which i can set an isotropic camera to for quick reference). I can also split that viewport to show simultaneously 2 - 4 windows, each set to one view mode.

You'll also notice the left sidebar has 3 sections, the top set being my object/character moving, scale, bend/rotate tools, then some simple camera area spot render tools (can drag and marque and area to to a spot render rather than the whole scene), then the set on the bottom is my viewport zoom, pan, orbit tools that allows me to fly around the scene and current selected item, (just sans the Austin Powers "Yeah baby yeah!" shouting during his photo shoot sessions)

9.2 and 9.3 are still the Director's Camera, but zoomed out farther back for an overview of the scene, also showing the "Conical" cameras i've placed at the center, left, and finally right orbits around the character, if Center is 0, then approximately the left and right ones are orbited -60 and +60 degrees to either side of center.

Preview 8 is probably what your looking for but as in a final rendered image, the top down isometric view. Now, preview 8 is just the viewport set to one of its handy default view modes, in which I'd have to add a new camera to the scene and set it to Isometric, and to the "top view" reference position. This can be done for any model I have, or scene I put together.

This being said, its not hard to add more cameras to a scene, or to set them to a specific view mode or point.
....

For backgrounds, yes, I can specify solid white, or even make a solid white ground plane in which it'll cast shadows onto from the figure whichever direction the lighting is pointing. The only caveat at the moment is, I'll still have to bring the image into photoshop and delete the white and feather the rest then save it to .png to get you the transparency option your looking for. If you would prefer to do that process on your end, it makes my job easier. If Carrara 6 had support for transparency in saving to .png format, then it'd remove the tedius step entirely. I don't know if Carrara 7 supports this option, and I hope Carrara 8 (which i'll be buying when its released) supports it.

....

Image sizes - 300x300 pixels per 'token image' down to 100x100 pixels per 'token image'
Thats a little more helpful now.

I can do and set individual renders at almost any size within reasonable limits, and 300x300 pixels is certainly doable. At that size, and given a top-down simple white backdrop, good / best quality renders will likely only take seconds to finish, couple minutes at the most. Likewise, it'd actually take more time per item to load them into the scene, cloth and pose the people, or scale the items I have to import (non native poser / daz model content). Characters can be assembly line processed, once I cloth them initially, I could refer to a batch of pre-made poses from various collections I have, apply to character, and re-render.

Now, as I mentioned before, It'd likely be best, and most accepted for gallery upload is if I make and put a batch of those token renders compiled onto a sheet, rather than flood swag with a dozen or however many little 300x300 sized images per batch.

Now, just to clarify, if you can scale down the tokens in your software, then it wouldn't be an issue if say I rendered all the items that I do agree to, to fit the same 300x300 pixel space? Be it a character, or vehicle, starfighter, transport, capital ship, deathstar, etc?

Thats the main thing I would need to know before hand, before I start doing anything, since I wouldn't want to have to go back at some point and redo them to a said uniform scale. This issue might come up when looking at say tokens for a YT1300 thats 50m length, or more seriously, a Corellian Corvette thats 150m length or one of those AA-9 Civilian transports I used in the Jacen Baurne image.

If the program supports larger token image sizes than 300x300, that would be very helpful to know, then we could work out and figure out some sort of image size scale to work by. Would also depend what size are the tokens you use or scale down to for characters. This heeds directly back to the paragraph above this. Would also be helpful for anyone else wishing to contribute to the project.

________________________
Core to the Quad baby!!!

If your going to complement me, don't tell me my work is neat, cool or awesome. If you really like it, tell me why you like it and what you like about it. Only then I'll take it as a complement.

Whoa... it's crazy to see the process. I have so little knowledge about 3d rendering. This is pretty amazing!

Boshuda

Thanks Asok :)

It gets crazier when I start having to play with and adjust the atmospheric settings - sunlight or moonlight, clouds, fog / haze. All this and more, to figure out what looks best, or what sort of mood I'm trying for with the image.

All you need to do is peruse my DeviantArt Gallery (link provided for those interested), in which I have from early morning, mid day, evening / sunset, and night renders, let alone indoor scenes which require a light setup entirely different.

In determining which direction or directions the lighting is coming from is something thats common across both art mediums here; however, when it comes to multiple light sources/directions, the program automatically does the legwork for what gets illuminated and where vs requiring your raw skill and expertise as an artist when inking & coloring by hand (or via wacom tablet).

The only other advantage 3d software allows is the content used in the scene (props, figures, and cameras) are more dynamic in the sense of setup and adjustable at any point in time of the process. Its more a matter of using the move/translate or rotate tool to change Jacen Baurne's arm from a casual mid-stride to having him crouching defensively rather than having to erase and re-draw the arm and pistol; or to change a color or texture, a matter of a few mouse clicks or drag and drops, vs erasing or selecting area and painting over and then re-shading shadows and highlights.

Though I guess both mediums have their equal tradeoff, and already in the past (and likely still do currently) I've received some animosity from some of the other swag artists here for those 'cheap cheats' provided by the 3d software medium. (those cheap cheats still leave a very big and noticable dent in my wallet and finances) Even some that I know online and off-site don't view my stuff as actual art created by me simply because I'm using pre-made models I didn't create myself.
________________________
Core to the Quad baby!!!

If your going to complement me, don't tell me my work is neat, cool or awesome. If you really like it, tell me why you like it and what you like about it. Only then I'll take it as a complement.

I hadn't checked recently tho if theres a Hutt, then yeah I'll do one up for ya.

Also, this does help - as i was asking earlier, as whether to fit all items into 300x300 sized square or what? for non square items, a 1x2 ratio makes sense. Landspeeders and the such, fall into this category.

Honestly, you could get into the entry-level version of Poser/Daz... www.daz3d.com has the free DazStudio versions 2.3 and 3.0 (3.0 is a bit iffy on some computers), all you need to do is sign up to the site for free, download app in the Software section, click the link there to register for a serial code, install the program, install the bonus content in your account profile from registering, then grab and unzip the sw stuff from vanishingpoint since those are poser ready content.

The stuff over at sci-fi3d.com are standard format 3d mesh models, tho daz studio can't import those save for .obj format items. Poser and Carrara (Carrara being Studio's bigger brother) can handle most of those listed formats for import and export. And I've a contact that can convert .max for me if in the case there isn't a provided conversion on the site there. Also, all the models at scifi3d are as-is. They won't pose in Poser, Studio or Carrara, ala posable limbs and joints. Thats the point I made above earlier.

WHen you download the legitimatly free Poser ready content from sites like Vanishingpoint, daz3d, renderosity, runtimedna, etc, they are already Poser rigged, so you can pose them as you please, cloth the humanoid figures, etc. Thats what sets Poser ready content apart. (even though you can use Daz Studio and the like).

If you want to try and step into the hobby, it can be fun. You might even be compelled to try doing up some artwork and join us 'swaggers' ;)

The only catch is, even though theres some free content available at Daz, and weekly free stuff featured, eventually the buying bug might bite you, then you'll be stepping into my world :) I do buy a few things from the 3 sites monthly, been doing so since March '08, and have about 40gb worth accumulated through purchases and widely available freebies. i hadn't dared try to add up how much i had spent on it all since then. Its all toooo easy to max out your credit card or go broke from this hobby. with the market / job recession around, the sites are really pushing sale after sale after discounted sale.
________________________
Core to the Quad baby!!!

If your going to complement me, don't tell me my work is neat, cool or awesome. If you really like it, tell me why you like it and what you like about it. Only then I'll take it as a complement.

Sorry about the delay, been a bit busy myself lately.

If you try out Daz Studio either 2.3 or 3.0, you can save the renders in .png format, and the background or floor, will be transparent which is what your needing.

If you need any help with setting up the program to render, setting render sizes and options, I'll be able to help, even provide a bit of a 1st time introduction type guide / tutorial. I've been helping another friend get started into it, and perhaps in time she'll be submitting artwork for swag here.

If your wanting some help, it might be best if I start up a new thread specifically for it. Or maybe a series of Blog entries might be better, but yet with a thread here to index the articles. This offer is open to anyone who would wish to try out the program and see what it is like or has to offer. Its available for both PC Windows and Mac. Some of you might wonder what's the use for you, well, there is a small assortment of SW items you could render and incorporate into your drawings and artwork. Such renders could be useful timesavers for display screens or holographic displays, just to name a few uses as a handy art tool in your toolbox.

The only unfortunate issue here is the models you can use in Daz Studio are any of those over at daz3d, and VanishingPoint. But hey, the program is free, as well as those assorted SW models.

The models over at Sci-Fi 3D, are in formats which Studio doesn't have support for. Those ones I will be able to help out with and render for you.

________________________
Core to the Quad baby!!!

If your going to complement me, don't tell me my work is neat, cool or awesome. If you really like it, tell me why you like it and what you like about it. Only then I'll take it as a complement.